A conversation with Hannah Watson
37 min. Recorded on 27 November 2020.
Hannah’s pronouns are she/her, and she doesn’t mind they/them. She is transgender, and although not fond of labels, the terms non-binary and asexual semi-resonate with her as well. Find out what that means to Hannah in this episode.
We also talk about gender identity versus biology versus sexuality, to what degree gender defines you, why the term ‘gender confirmation surgery’ is a better term than ‘gender reassignment surgery’ and ‘sex change’, conforming to society’s norms, and ‘unconventional’ types of love, attraction, intimacy and relationships.
“I’m not a stranger in my own body any more.”
TRANSCRIPT [expand to read]
Esther: Hello and welcome. What’s your name?
Hannah: Hi, my name is Hannah.
Esther: Welcome Hannah. And how do you identify?
Hannah: Well, that’s a, I mean, that’s a tricky one off the bat, really because I’m, I’m not as fond of like labels as it were. I mean, I could say that I’m trans. I, I mean, I use she/her pronouns, so I mean, that’s, that’s probably the most obvious I’ll feel. So. I mean, it’s the most… The thing that I would most want to get across to someone is how to refer to me. But then again, I don’t mind they/ them either. I’m not too fussed.
I identify as largely female. So as a woman, I guess that it’s a thing like, “oh yeah, I’m a trans woman.” that could be just the easiest thing to say, but it’s often I find more complicated than that because it’s about like what that actually means to me rather than being … I think that the trouble I have with labels is that it can mean it can mean one thing to someone and one thing to someone else.
It’s like, yes, I have a degree of something innate to me that I would call femininity or a feminine identity rather than like a feminine presentation. But it’s not really something that I would just use to describe the whole of me, but yeah. I would, if the most thing that I would say, I was like, yeah, she/her or they/them pronouns is good for me.
Esther: Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting that you say like what it, what it means to you. So would you like to sort of dive into that a bit deeper?
Hannah: Yeah. I feel that I have an, I don’t want to say that I’m 100% female, because like, I feel that gender can be a kind of… It’s something that you take for yourself. It can be a word that’s like defined by society as like, “oh yeah, you can be a woman. If you do these things. This, this, this..” It’s not that at all. It’s like, It’s an innate part of your identity. It’s something. That you have, that you define for yourself, like, it’s, it’s an aspect that you define for yourself.
Like, I, I have loads of other things that I have. I like biology. I like gardening, origami and all that sounds like, oh yeah. And I’m also… which isn’t really female, it’s just another thing. And I say majority because yeah, my connection to gender as it were isn’t as comparably strong as a lot of people that I know and you know that within myself, I’m like, well, I don’t connect as much with the concept of gender that I have inside me that other people do. And a lot of people define themselves a lot by gender. And I feel like, yeah, I have a connection to gender.
It’s something that I wouldn’t say that I have no gender, but I don’t feel that it shapes me as much or that it’s as much. It’s another aspect of myself. I see it as another aspect of myself. A lot of like, it’s, it’s very easy, especially for me with, you know, being trans and all that, that I can get very much like, “oh, gender can be all encompassing.”
I have basically been on this seven, eight year.. I don’t know journey is cliched, but it’s kind of like a journey it’s 7 or 8 year kind of thing to claim what I to adjust my body, to what I believe that that is right for my identity. And, and then I come out and say, “well, you know, I don’t really have that much connection to gender.”
It seems a bit silly, but it’s like, I’ve gone through life-changing surgery. And then I’m like, “oh, I don’t have much connection to gender.” But it’s just strange to look back on. But it’s not the entirety of me. And I feel that it’s…I criticize people for like, always opening with like, what kind of job do you to who, because I feel so I feel more disconnected to that than I do to my gender, obviously.
But, but like, I feel it’s not the thing that’s like, well, just because I say I’m female. What does that mean? You know, what, what, what do you take from that? Like if I’m talking to someone and, and I, they see a clock me as female, or they say, say that I’m female, like, what does that mean to them? Like, I, and, and it’s, it’s strange. It’s like, no gender is mine.
Esther: Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s interesting that you say that I had a conversation with Rachel, she was saying a similar thing. Like gender is just a part of your identity and for her, it was also like just as a minor part, I suppose. And if I, if I look at it from like my perspective as a cisgender person, like my gender is, well, it is just a small part of who I am. It’s me. It’s just one element. Right. So in a way that makes sense.
Hannah: Yeah. I feel that. I’ve had bad experiences with gender. Like I feel that the effect of that the most, the most I felt gender is through the mismatch of, through the feelings of dysphoria of… Because I have a gender identity, I can then look at my body and see that that does not reflect this gender identity and that I’m putting myself out there and like my outside doesn’t match my inside. And that has caused quite a lot of distress in the past. And I feel it’s strange because a lot of people sometimes say like “how do you know how do you know you’re woman? How do you know you’re a man?”
And I always say, “if someone took your brain out of your body and put you in a robot or put you in a completely different body. You would still know that you’re you, you would still be you.” And it was almost like that had already been done. I’ve I already felt like this body… it’s not mine.
It’s just “the body.” And through receiving hormones and having surgery that I was able to change the body into something that I could call mine and, and reclaim that. And that has been a kind of gender struggle that has really helped me to say that well, yeah, I kind of looking back, I kind of do have a gender cause that’s… or multiple. I don’t know. It’s still a bone of contention, I think, I could very easily classify myself as non-binary because I don’t, I don’t really believe that I fit firmly with that with the, I don’t really feel I fit firmly with the gender binary, but I don’t feel it significantly enough to particularly…
It’s not that I don’t have the effort to like, go through. I know that it’ll kind of going, coming out or transition or that kind of thing, but I feel like it’s, it’s less of a it’s it’s like, that’s, that’s a part of me that is a part of me. And I can acknowledge that for myself and I don’t need the rest of the world to acknowledge that.
I’m fine with, with being called she/her. I’m fine with that because I didn’t need… I know in myself that. That’s only part of the story and I didn’t need anyone else to know any part of the story. That’s fine. Their reality and my reality can be different, but it’s fine because it’s how I see myself.
And it’s easy. It’s easier to say that when, when it’s something internal that you’ve, you know, kind of come to terms with and something that doesn’t particularly affect your outside presentation, but when it’s something that. When I previously thought or looked in the mirror and thought “male,” that was a lot like now I’m not a stranger in my own body anymore, so I can be a bit more, I have a bit more freedom to be, to explore other realms of gender other than “ouch, everything is terrible.”
Esther: Hm. Yeah. See that, that makes sense. Really. So basically what you’re saying now that you feel like things match up, that it’s no longer a big deal. But when you say before, that happened before your, your well, transition as it were, I suppose. That was a big deal.
Hannah: Yeah. It’s almost as if it’s like, well your room is a bit too warm, you know, it made me sweat.
Also, I’m on fire. Yeah, I would probably have to deal with the fact that I’m on fire and then I could think, well, my room’s a bit too warm, but I can handle it. I did. I couldn’t handle being on fire. It’s a bit of a silly analogy, but it’s that kind of thing.
Esther: Yeah, totally, totally. So do you feel, you’ve, you’ve always known that you like, well you’re in the wrong body…
Hannah: I would say so. I would say so. I’ve always felt like a, like a stranger. Like I kind of just existed. I didn’t really live. I didn’t really have like at very young age, even like four or five. I didn’t identify with a lot of the things that the boys were doing.
I was very enclosed. I didn’t make any friends at all. I wasn’t very active. And I didn’t have the words to describe what I was going through. I didn’t know what I didn’t have. I, I I’m, I’m really grateful that that even, even if, even this was, this was what, 10, 15 years ago, even, even now like people growing up now through primary school, secondary school have no…
There’s awareness of transgender. There’s awareness of the fact that just because you have a penis, doesn’t mean you’re a boy and that’s the way it is forever. That’s that does, there’s a awareness that that’s not the case back then there wasn’t and I almost had an, almost any feeling of, “well I’m I’m in the wrong body” was kind of…
“Wrong body” is, again, is a bit of a bit of a cliche, but it’s a useful one. So to kind of frame some up the feeling of dysphoria, I guess, that, that I went through and all those feelings of there’s something really horribly wrong here. We’re kind of quashed because I didn’t know that there was like no way of me knowing how to right that wrong or to, to look inside myself for that wrong.
Everything was just, just kind of bricked off. So, so I just shut myself down completely. I was very. I was, I, I say I wasn’t particularly much of a person. I don’t have a lot of memories from, from back then. I have very occasional, like flashes of certain things, but I don’t really have a lot of memories from back then. I don’t have a lot of, I don’t have a lot of good memories at all, and I don’t have any friends that I kept from from primary school, secondary school. It was a very dark, but I just focused a lot on like academia and on burying myself in things, because I didn’t really know what to do.
I felt different. I felt odd I felt off. I felt like everything was missing that there was not. There wasn’t a, me, everyone else was doing things that were going through puberty. You know, it never happened to me. It was like, oh, you should start to feel these things and these things and these things, you know, like I’ve just, I just feel, I just feel sad because I felt sad yesterday.
I feel sad today. Great.
I’ve even asked my parents about it. They said there was always something wrong. We always knew that there was something wrong, but we can do anything. And that I felt that that was that’s.
That’s heartbreaking. Isn’t it really to think about, like, when you know that there’s something wrong, you can’t do anything and yeah, it’s, it’s hard. It was harsh. But thankfully after, after, after going after, you know, leaving school, going to university and a lot of, kind of more open and accepting environment, I actually learned that there was, you know, there was a word for this thing.
And then I could actually look at my own thoughts and think, well, this is, you know, I’ve been trying to hide it from myself, but, you know, I, I always, I always define well more towards. You know, I, I am a woman. I’m not like, it’s not like I want to be a woman it’s that I already have this woman in, in myself.
And I’m still, which is a really difficult thing to come to terms with, because in the day it was like, oh yeah, do you want to have a sex change? You know, do you want to become a woman? I’m like, no, I already have this more many group inside me. And it’s really, really uncomfortable because the outside isn’t the same.
Wow. Yeah. I think that’s why they do they call it gender confirming or gender confirmation
surgery, gender. Oh yeah. It’s something like that. Isn’t it information search or something like that now. Instead of like the agenda adjustment or whatever else they used to call it and fast because yeah, because yeah, it’s about, it’s about making the outside match the inside.
Esther: So when you started coming across the words for how you were feeling, how did you, did you feel like it took you a long time, maybe for you to start expressing in that way? I mean, what was your, so
Hannah: my first, my first My first kind of experience with it was the fact that I was, I was 19 and I’d finally like come to this kind of internal conclusion of, well, there’s the, this is a, this is some kind of weird brain thing.
So I’m, I feel that I’m, I feel that I defined more as a woman and I’m stuck. Like my brain is doing this thing where I feel like I will own what I’ve got the wrong body. Like, I, I didn’t, I. And it was, I did because I didn’t know anything about it. I felt like I haven’t got, I’ve got a brain tumor or they got some kind of developmental condition where there’s been like a flush of female.
Cause I was doing biology at the time. So I was full in with it. I was like, well, I’ve been like some kind of weird flush of hormones into my brain when I was born. Well, there’s some weird thing. And I looked up all the NHS books. I, and that was when I found it. That was what I found like transgender was, was.
It’s like basically this nervously searching of data help, I think couple of woman, male body and yeah, that was that they had, like, they had like stories and accounts on that with like people that had been through the actual, full, full transition as it were, again, that’s, that’s a bit of a mass save because it’s, it’s, it’s like, you know, you could be trans and not, not go through any surgery or, but, but obviously the NHS was more geared towards like the medical side.
So they had. People’s accounts who would actually pay into leads, gender clinic and, and gone through the process. And, and that was just like, well, this is, this is what I’ve been feeling. Oh, God, there’s a word for this. And it was, it was a little bit frightening, but it was liberating. It was really like someone had actually like this, this humble website.
It actually finally given me hope that there would, there will be a future for me because before I never really. I never really saw a future for myself. I never really saw a kind of, I just said, well, I’m just going to be, I’m just going to muddle through life and be sad all the time. You know, I never really saw anything that could possibly exist outside my isolated bubble.
And, and for the first time it was like, well, I can actually, it’s got a word that means I can do something about this. And now that was basically what I said to myself was, you know, we, we can do this. This, this, this is the thing, this is recognized we can do this. And, and that was, that was, you know, it was, it was life-changing, it was, it was very liberating.
It was a bit scary, but it was, I think for the first time it was like, I was actually got the excitement of like, oh, this is, this is scary, but it’s something that’s going to be something that we can do. It’s something that I could, I could do. Yeah.
Esther: So what what’s been the most surprising thing about transitioning, would you say?
Hannah: Hmm, surprise to me, I think, I think the home, like looking back how the biggest surprise is how much I’ve changed and not just from like physically, but mentally how much good it’s done for me. And it kind of starts if I started getting hormones really. And. Snap, just really just lines. You’re praying, you know, I just make, I was always like once I’d found out, I’d always, I was always nervous about things like, oh my God, my chest, like chin Harry’s growing.
My head is going to recede. You know, I was, I was frightened about these changes that were happening to me. And I’ve always through childhood was never, was always just this, this insular person that was just waiting for the next bad thing to happen. And then. Wow. When they, when, when I started actually getting treatment, I was like, well, you know, this is my, my body is now you know, at a, at a point of peace, it’s a, it’s a, that things aren’t getting worse, you know, it’s, it’s imbalance.
And it did feel like a kind of sense of balance. And, and I started actually actually living instead of just existing and. And I have changed so so much. I, I am so much more out there. I’m so much more outspoken. I’m so much more extroverted. I, I never was like that before. I was never, I never existed before.
It didn’t really, you know, I never really got out, really had any friends and now I’m just like, oh, at least before COVID I was, I was out for carrying around the country around either seeing friends all over the place, Sweden, the Netherlands, you know, everywhere I could get to because I have this, this kind of.
Not for life, really? Yeah. But my life is sometimes a bit of a bit that I liken it to a roller coaster ride with bits of the track missing, because that’s what it feels like. But yeah, I, I, I feel a lot of solace, a lot of energy from doing things going out and embracing the world that I never had before.
And I think that was that’s the most shocking thing looking back was. Is is the fact that how I’ve, how much I’ve changed as a result of being able to be myself more. That’s amazing.
Esther: So what’s something you wish cis-gender people
Hannah: knew? Oh, something I think so a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of things that are shown in the media and a lot of things that are.
Kind of shown in, in like television and stuff. It’s like, there’s a lot of this focus on, like, you’ve got to know all the words you’ve got to respect me because I’m trans, you want to know all the words and it’s, it’s, it’s not about that. It’s a help. It’s about having empathy and, and to things like, or at least that’s what it is to me.
Like. Hmm say, oh, you know, you want all this stuff because, because you’re there. So it’s like, no, I literally, but it’s harder to ask that it’s often harder to ask people for basic empathy, that it is to like respect the, the, the bad city of, of my struggle. You know, it’s, it’s easier to say, you know, look at how, how, how terrible things all for me, it’s, it’s hard to say, well, just empathize.
And I think that’s, that’s the thing it’s about. Do you see a trans person, you see a person that is presenting maybe differently to the norm. That’s still a person person. And, and as a, as a, as a to that pose, I’m totally to that person. Then as a CIS person will have had so much. Thrown out them about how they should conform to the norm, how they should be how they should be a good wage slave and go work for some businessmen and, and Hey, everything, that’s not normal because that’s just that, that just keeps the bone grinding away.
Is it totally is and conforming to the status quo and all that kind of stuff. And, but actually life is shouldn’t be like that. It shouldn’t be about. Being a nothing person and grinding yourself away should be about looking at that person over there. That’s, that’s wearing the full, like, I dunno, whatever outfit that worrying or that, that person over there, that’s grasping the whole of their identity and, and saying good on you.
You know, we’d like to have that difference in the world, that difference in the world, that spice to life. And like, I don’t want a red carpet everywhere I go. I just want people to. One empathize with me because I, yeah, I have been through a lot. I have still got issues I need to work through because of everything that’s happened before.
And to, to, to not, to not, not believe it’s it’s it’s, it’s the, it’s the it’s the, the thing is I don’t believe his lies don’t believe to don’t believe. What you’ve read in the BT about trans people, try to steal your gender and devouring it or sacrifice sacrificing your agenda to awaken the elder gods. I don’t know what, what stuff the newspapers out sometimes, but we’re going to go into John Lewis and we’re going to burn all of the girls clothes like that
and to have basic human rights. Okay. And we still don’t have that. So. Just to step the thighs with us a little bit. And that’s the kind of thing I want to get across. We all not a threat. Yeah. Yeah. The thing for, for bigots and people that want to spread hate for whatever reason, some people, some people aren’t even bigoted, they just want to spread hate because it sells newspapers, but that’s right.
Oh, very easy thing is like, this person is a threat to you and your family is they always use the family card as well. Some of the headlines I always found like trans people start to you and your family somehow by burning your girl’s clothes or something. But. No one, not a threat. This is, this is a, this is a bruise.
Do not be bruised. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes when you see that the things that some people come up with and you just want to go up to him and shake him and just be like, no. How could you believe? Yeah.
Esther: Is there anything else that you’d like to people to know about you?
Hannah: Anything else I’d like to say about me or, yeah.
Yeah. I think. I think it’s worth on the other top topic of like gender and sexuality and things, because worth mentioning that there is a lot, sometimes I found with talking to people that people seem to equate gender and sexuality in a way that isn’t really there. So, and I think my show is quite interesting on this because I never really experienced attraction towards anyone when, when I was.
Pre pre-transition I’ll call it, but you know what? I wasn’t aware of who I was. I also wasn’t really, I didn’t really w how could anyone love me? There was no, there wasn’t a me. And so I wasn’t really attracted to anyone. And then when, when I, when I fully came out and when I was, when I was, you know, like pre-transition, I was ever really tried swinging on that, like, Since, since being able to be myself, it became by my kind of identity.
I’m I first have just purely identified as lesbian. I was only attracted to kind of, I mean, I say lesbian is really, again that’s that’s, that’s another, that’s another label, isn’t it? There’s another term that say like trends that, that can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people.
And to me. It’s I, I sometimes utilize pianist and do Sapphic. And it’s, it’s just kind of me trying to categorize how my brain experiences, attraction and attraction towards the female aspect of identity, I guess. And that can be. Nonbinary people that are more, you know, female leaning and that, that can be, you know, people that identify as female CIS or trans or whatever.
And I mean, it seems rude to say, well, it’s just not man, isn’t it. But like I’m J I S it’s like not, not men, not aspects of masculinity would I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be comfortable. Being in a romantic relationship with a trans man or CIS man, really. So it’s not really anything to do with, you know, genitalium or anything. And so, so that was, that was my kind of first revelation.
And then my second revelation was that sex isn’t particularly much to me, like even pre post pre pre pre-op. It was just not a thing. Anyway. I was not comfortable with that region that wasn’t happening and post-surgery, I was just like, well, Yes, there are better. There are other ways to experience intimacy and closeness and intense physical feelings with people without putting slot a and salt B and, and yeah, that, that is, that is quite a defining part of myself for that.
So it goes back to the kind of sexuality versus gender fitting. It’s like, well, just because I’m a trans woman doesn’t mean like I’m trying to, to men or women or anything, it’s like. You can be trans and have any sexuality. There is, you know, those two are separate aspects of a person and aspects of their right Anthony and who that attracts to and things like that.
So that’s another thing that I always like to jam in that when I can is, is kind of the whole sexuality and gender thing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s an interesting one. Isn’t it actual, but still be romantic with someone and still be very. Close and very cuddly and stuff.
Esther: Yeah. And I, I think that’s, that’s a very undervalued thing in society.
Cause it’s all about, you know what the, what the relationship should look like.
Hannah: It always has to be THE relationship as well. You can’t, you have this, this, this kind of strange persistent philosophy that you have to find your one forever person and be with them, the rest of your life, not be with anyone else ever, even though there’s like 7 billion people on the planet, that’s kind of depressing the people on the planet as an environmentalist, but whatever.
Yeah. Did you do then? Just, just con you do not allow to love anyone else. Also, like, you’re not allowed to love your friends because what’s that. And it’s like, hang on, hang on a minute. Here. There are lots of different types of love and also what are you doing? But yeah, some, some people, it works. Some people, it works, you know, they can meet someone and never, never wanted, you know, you spend the rest of life with them and never, never fall for anyone else.
There’s other people that doesn’t work. And, and that’s, again, I go back to me saying, That’s that’s a fun thing that brings spice to life. That’s, that’s the thing that they’re just gonna, w we’re just going to do our own thing and you do your own thing, and we’re just going to let each other be, you know, that’s.
Esther: Yeah, totally.
Hannah: Recognize that we’ve come a long way to be here and, and they had us. Yeah.
Esther: Yeah. And it doesn’t have to devalue. I mean, one is not more…
Hannah: One is not more, yeah. What is not more superior than the other? Yeah. It’s just, that one is very much preached as if it’s the only thing, and this thing will know that there are alternatives out there.
You know, you be yourself, be yourself in it. It seems cliche, but you can only, you can only be, you know, at the end of the day, the person that you have to live with a hundred percent of the time is you. So you might as well be true to yourself, even if you’re not true to other people, you know, even if you hide it away at, you know, be true to yourself, Because you can’t trick yourself, do you?
Esther: Yeah, totally. Yeah. So you mentioned the word asexual. So is that something that resonates with you?
Hannah: I think that that semi resonates with me as they say it’s there, there are also different degrees of asexuality. There are different degrees of either being not interested in sex, being sex repulsed being not interested in intimacy, not being interested in sensuality.
I use sensuality very definitely, as I used to say, like, I’m not interested in SEXuality but I’m interested in sensuality, which is subtly different, you know, sensation doesn’t have to be, you know, Just like sex sensation, but it can be experienced in a similar way. Almost it with someone you’re close to, you know, I mean, I don’t need to get into, I don’t need to get into all the graphic details, but then again, this, this podcast is called 50 shades of gender.
But I can I can experience intimacy with someone through, to non non-sexual sensual things, and also take pleasure in sensual things myself, but not like particularly sexual things. I don’t, I didn’t look at someone and think that person is hot. I want to have sex with them or that person’s hot, I want to do, you know, do whatever this, this, this, and that.
I don’t know because I can’t. I can’t really process that because I’ve never felt it before. I can look at someone and think they all respectively beautiful, but not like I want to hold that person who I was thinking. Oh, wow. That, that dress looks really good on color or, you know, that, that really emphasizes, you know, that, that that’s, that’s just, that’s just artistically beautiful.
It’d be their outfit or, or their body language was something that some aspects about their personality. They are a beautiful person and without feeling particularly sexual attraction as it were towards them. Yeah. And yeah, and I still feel romantic attraction towards people.
I still feel like when I, when I’m, when I get very close to someone, sometimes it’s like, yeah, I would like to do things that would be normally categorized as romantic with that person. Sometimes it can be. I could do romantic things with non-romantic. This is confusing, but like, you know, you can have dates with friends.
I can have dates with friends. That’s, that’s what I’m saying. Getting out really. You can have like a oh, go out for dinner and watch a movie or something with a close friend. And it’s, it’s kind of has that kind of romantic vibe, but you’re not in a relationship. And, and, and I say that, yeah, asexuality is like one of the ways that I can kind of label myself that expresses that.
Difference, but like that, that kind of style of, of mindset, style of thought that style of attraction that allows me to kind of 1. Meet others, like, like me and 2. Express that to people quite quickly, you know, you, you, I I’ve, I’ve taken what half an hour to 15 minutes to, to describe this. Whereas if it’s just someone you meet on the street yet.
“Yeah. I’m asexual, you know, it’s just very easy to, to, to, to rattle that off and yeah, well, again,
Esther: it’s like, it’s, it’s another label that means different things to different people, isn’t it?
Hannah: Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I’m not going to. I’m not going to say someone else can’t use that label. I don’t own that label.
You know that there are, that there’s been issues with people say like bisexual people can’t be lesbians. And it’s like, no, of course they can. You know, you can’t, you can’t just say that because you’re a lesbian. You now own the word lesbian and can deny other people from it, using it. What the heck? They can claim if they fucking want to. Yeah.
Esther: Ah, I love it. Oh, that’s, that’s, that’s been so brilliant. I’d love to get to you about all this stuff. Is, is there anything you’d like to say before we wrap up? Is there any last thoughts you want to leave
Hannah: us with? No, I think, I think I we covered a lot, and, and I hope that, you know, I’ve, I’ve managed to remain, you know, respectful and remain.
No, not, not, not too controversial, maybe a bit controversial. I always like being a little bit controversial. And that some people get something from this and like basically thank you to all the lovely people out there that have listened to this. And. Listen to my views and my strange ways of ways of describing things sometimes.
Esther: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Hannah.
Hannah: Thank you. Thank you very much.